How long have you worked in Management?

9 years.

Who do you manage now?

Matt Deighton and Charlie Wood

I’m also mentoring Ruby Duff and The Magic Lantern who are available for management.

Where did you find your first client and what inspired you to take them on?

The first artists I officially managed came around officially pretty much in the same month, and were Pat Dam Smyth and Ren Harvieu. I had promised both I’d introduce them to the best managers I knew at the time to try and help them on their way. Having met several, both took a real shine to David Manders and Steve Dix at Liquid for different reasons, and who had done such a remarkable job for Public Service Broadcasting.

The way it worked out was that both sides felt like they wanted me to stay a part of it, in both cases, so having vowed never to get into management, I became a part of the larger setup for both artists and loved it. As David pointed out, certainly in Pat’s case, I already was managing anyway! In both cases, I couldn’t get out my system how naturally talented they were as writers and performers, and how brilliant they were as people.

Both Pat and Ren reminded me of Matt Deighton insomuch as every atom of their lives revolved around music: whether making it; feasting on it; or dreaming about it. There was a deep, deep knowledge of their influences, recording processes and the lives they’d led to get them to where they were.

There was also a desire after my own artist journey to try and help them avoid the pitfalls I’d tumbled 2 arms, 2 legs and headfirst into, something that was also a main driving force behind setting up Karousel Music. I learned an awful lot from David and Steve, like I have from other great managers like Marc Connor and Diane Wagg who are a source of support for so many other people beyond me.

What does a good/bad day at work look like for you?

A good day is talking to one of the artists I work with, and to get a sense that they’re revelling in their life choices. Of course, any day where a sync is on it’s way, something’s had a huge playlisting, a great review comes in or there’s a huge support on the horizon is what you want every day of the week. But for me, it’s those conversations when you know they are full of love for their art and their life choices; when creativity is coming, and there’s a sense of peace and optimism that they’re excited about the future, and proud of the past.

It’s impossible to count the number of setbacks artists and musicians face in any given year, and a bad day is when so much work, love, joy and heartache has gone into something like a record, or a video, or a promo campaign, and it doesn’t seem to move the needle; and that starts to throw sand on their campfire. I’ve learned to emotionally protect myself a bit more in recent years from the osmosis of their disappointments because they need me to raise a new pile of wood for them, but it still takes it out of you.

A perfect day would be visiting them in the studio to give them some brilliant news, and then watching them melt into a perfect take surrounded by collaborators they love. And then getting the signed license back on a sync that pays for the next record. And then meeting them in China Town to celebrate. (If we’re really going perfect, then there’d be an email of a large donation to Help Musicians too, and the kids would – against all reasonable expectation – be asleep and dreaming happily in their own beds when I got in, but let’s stick to management here…)

What has been the highlight of your management career to date?

Matt Deighton’s documentary getting pick of the day or week in the Telegraph, Times, Sunday Telegraph, Mail, Mail on Sunday, Sun, Radio Times and a ton of others. We had literally £0 for that campaign and through love and bloody mindedness managed to get a gorgeous documentary made and then shown numerous times on Sky Arts as well as NOWTV. Then to get all that love, and some interviews on things like Times Radio and 6Music for an artist of around 50 felt like a real victory for refusing to take no for an answer. The credit there also goes massively to Sammy Andrews who pulled a rabbit out of the hat the size of a small moon. It felt particularly good in light of what he’d been through historically. Great music and proper artists find a way.

What do you think are the big challenges for a manager in 2024?

If I had to give a one word answer, it’s the obvious one, ‘money’. Keeping them afloat, while paying for an increasingly expensive existence in the UK, while trying to keep yourself alive is brutally hard until you hit a certain level. I also love that the MMF were the first to talk about ‘expectation management’ because it’s so, so important to caring for your artists, and yourself.

I was at the magnificent FastForward conference last week (which I recommend to all managers) and I left feeling that the oncoming terraforming of the industry by AI is going to be faster, and more aggressive than anything we’ve ever seen. The challenge of managing the indifference and exhaustion with content that I think it will create amongst fans is a big one. Closer to my heart though, is that I think the career of being a ‘session musician’ (or just ‘professional musician’) is now becoming almost terminally precarious, and lot of artists really need them. Session fees are so much lower than they were historically. Already many artists can’t afford to take all the players from the record on tour so take stems instead – usually stems of that musician’s performance in the studio, which is then broadcast live in a venue, and still, in 2025 does not generate that player a PPL royalty. Just allocate the stems an ISRC! Is it that hard in a world of tech and AI? Nor do they receive a neighbouring right for streaming as a non featured performer. Sure, it’s pennies, but it’s the principle, and it all adds up.

It’s impossible to explain how important those pro musicians are in the making of so many of those records that become world beaters. The way they interpret (and usually improve on) the direction from the artist and producer; the feel over programmed parts; the happy accidents; the experience they bring from hundreds of other sessions with great artists and producers; and let’s not forget the emotional and career guidance and companionship they provide our artists. With the advent of a world where you can select an AI ‘musician’ on your DAW who has been trained on x amount of other musicians and performances ‘improving’ on the already remarkable amount of loops and samples out there, I’m just not sure how we think pro musicians are going to be able to get enough paid work in to make enough in the early and mid level to get to being the next Carole Kay, Mike Rowe, Matty Brown, Ben Trigg or Divinty Roxx. At this rate, you’ll be seeing the next 21 year old international best selling prodigy on tour with a band in their 50’s or 60’s. Or a laptop. There’ll always be some, but at this rate, the way the UK treats them, I imagine we’ll be reliant on flying them in from countries that actually support them as a profession, like Denmark.

The final thing I guess is pension. Hands up which managers have a pension? If it’s more than 25% of the managers out there, I’ll heat my hat. And these days, I rather need it.

Why would you recommend the MMF?

Management more than any other profession in our industry is about community, connections and collaboration. It’s the best money I spend, every year, to be a member. The amount of educational opps is second to none. The amount of contacts coming on your radar year round is remarkable; but most of all, the ability to be able to lift up your fellow managers as well as reach out for help both business wise and emotionally when you need it, is a game changer. It’s a hard, sometimes thankless, but oftentimes rewarding job, maybe the most in music. There’s times when it’s amazing, and more when it’s lonely. Being an MMF member has made all of that more bearable, and more fun when the good times hit. The job of a manager is ever changing and the MMF are brilliant in keeping us all updated as to what is happening, and how to react. Nice work team!

What music are you currently listening to?

The Magic Lantern’s latest masterpiece To Everything A Season; Ruby Duff’s blinding new EP Where Do Odd Socks Go (One of BBC Introducing’s artists of the year last year); and usually on any given week, Wilco’s Sky Bly Sky and Talk Talk’s Spirit of Eden.